The Commission Code for Success

Trust-Based Selling: Moving Beyond Commission Breath

• Season 1 • Episode 4

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Kurt Tuford, Professor of Advanced Professional Selling at the University of Houston and Vice President of sales development at DXP, joins Morris to discuss the fundamental differences between professional and amateur sales approaches. Together they explore how trust-building, systematic processes, and genuine curiosity create success in commission-based businesses.

• Professional sellers focus on what they can give to customers, while amateurs focus on what they can get
• Trust is built through credibility, reliability, and intimacy, all over self-orientation
• Following a proven sales process or system leads to predictable, repeatable results
• The art of asking great open-ended questions is the foundation of effective discovery
• Offering multiple legitimate options empowers customers in the decision-making process
• People get excited about features but ultimately buy benefits
• Technical aspects matter less than the business case when selling to organizations
• "Some people will, some people won't. So what? Next!" – don't get hung up on one sale
• The satisfaction in professional selling comes from genuinely helping people get what they want

Remember to go to MorrisSims.com for more information on maximizing your commission-based business.


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Speaker 1:

I absolutely agree with you, morris, and I think therein lies the challenge between the amateur and the professional is how quickly can I establish a trust-based relationship that doesn't seem manipulative? I don't have commission breath. I'm really curious about where are you at in your blank.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Commission Code Podcast. Thanks for listening. We really do appreciate you being here. You know the Commission Code title is it's actually the Commission Code for your success. Our only objective is to help you maximize your business to get what you want. We focus on businesses where revenue comes from commissions or fees or most any kind of 1099 miscellaneous income. We just lump it all together, call it all commission. You're running a business and our content in this podcast is designed to help you run that business so that you can increase revenue and have more time to enjoy it. So if you're in any kind of commission-based sales or consulting or professional training or most anything else where your income depends on you going out, finding a client, somebody that's going to pay you for your services or product, you run that kind of business. We have stuff that's going to help you.

Speaker 2:

I'm your host and my name is Morris Sims. I've been consulting, guiding and training commission-based business owners for well, a long time well over 40 years now. I've been consulting one-on-one. I do training in groups or individually. I've done speaking and keynote addresses and facilitate workshops and all other things as well as well. I ran a training department where our department wrote, designed and delivered training for owners of commission-based businesses. My clients today include insurance agents, travel agents, travel agencies, commercial product suppliers and just a bunch of others. I hope you will always find something in this and every episode you listen to that can help you in your business to get what you want. So with all that in mind, let's get this thing started.

Speaker 2:

Our guest today on the Commission Code for Success is Kurt Tuford. Did I get that right? You did Hot dog Got it right for once in my life here. Kurt is the Professor of Advanced Professional Selling at the University of Houston and Vice President of sales development at DXP in Houston. He's an author and a speaker and just does everything under the Shannon sun, so we're so glad to have you with us here, kurt. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 1:

You bet Morris Looking forward to it. In our green room conversation, it seems like you and I have walked the same path, so I think we're going to complete each other's sentences after a while.

Speaker 2:

I hope so. I hope so. That's always the fun part of this, that's for sure. Kurt, I love your title, professor Advanced Professional Selling. I love that word professional sales, because I think it's so different than what the general public thinks of when they think of sales. Because it's like you know, you hear, and I do too. I hear it from people all the time well, you can be, I can't be a salesperson, morris. There's just no way I can be in sales. I can't do that. That's not me. And you know they say sales. I have a relative of mine who said well, you know, all sales is manipulation anyway, and I just about blew my top, but I kept my mouth closed because I didn't want my wife to kill me. But the fact is there's such a difference between professional sales and what people in general tend to think about it. How do you think about professional sales versus amateur sales, kurt?

Speaker 1:

Wow, morris, that's a tough question. How do I think professional sales versus amateur sales? We'll start with amateur sales. We who are in the sales profession get lumped into this box of rocks. We're that suede shoe, pinky ring, plaid jacket hey, what's it going to take to get you into the insurance policy today? And there is an immediate wall of resistance and apathy that comes up simply because of that. Now, the professional side is much more consultative, it's much more ABC. Always be curious. It's the genuine nature of hey, let me ask a couple of discovery questions to see if there's a fit. If there is great. If there's not, I'm quickly on my way and I think, if we just start building that trust and rapport from that area of professionalism, there is a process you can take them through. There's an art, there's a science to all the things that we talk about. And I think the difference is what is it that I can get from you, says the amateur. What is it that I can give to you, says the professional?

Speaker 2:

Oh, how true, how true, kurt. You just gave me about 100 different things I want to ask you about. The fact is, you're absolutely right. There is a process that we go through in professional sales in order to find out more about what people want and how to help them get whatever it is they want. That's our job, because when that happens, then everybody's going to win right.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, and many of the sales processes that you have used in your stoic career in the insurance business and every interview that you do as you talk to people about what is the process? There's a process to bake cookies. Screw up the process, you don't get a cookie. There's a process for sales and the beauty of sales is there are multiple different processes so you can carve out the one that fits you the best based on whatever 1099 product or service that you're representing.

Speaker 1:

If it's a fast sales cycle, a long sales cycle, a slow sales cycle, an immediate sales cycle, and I really believe the professional can see that process, whether it's action-based selling, impact-based selling, spin selling, action-based selling, impact-based selling, spin selling and at the University of Houston we introduce many of those to our students. That gives them this chance that says well, first I have to do this and then this and then that. Rarely do we put our shoes on before our underwear. And again, why do we do that? Because there's a process to that. You can do it the other way, but it's cumbersome and it's humorous. But if you follow the right process, results can happen.

Speaker 2:

I've always not always but I like to say that processes become systems and if we use a system, there are several things that occur. When you use a system, good results happen and you can count on it, you can depend on it. When you use a system that is proven and by George, everything I do in my business comes down to a system. I have a system that I went through before I answered your call when you called into this podcast. I have a system for what I'm going to do when I'm in this thing. As you say, I have a system for how I get up and go through my morning routine. We all have a process for so many different things in our lives and certainly in our business. We ought to have processes or systems to do everything we do, including sales.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. It's a repeatable, predictable system or a repeatable predictable process that will, over time, get you the results you need. And, of course, if we draw back on your experience in the insurance game, you get that young kid that comes in there and says I want to make $100,000. Tomorrow. And you have to say, tomorrow, I want to make $100,000. And then you have to say tomorrow, well, I want to do it right now. It's a system of policies, written policies, closed. It's a system of talking to the ideal customer profile. Go to the wrong person. You're wasting energy and time. Go to the right person based on what insurance has been around for a century. So the system, the process is recorded. It's there. Can you do this Absolutely Because you've got a hundred years of proven track records of success. Why are we not using this? Why do we have to reinvent every single time?

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's incredible, and that's usually what I found with the young folks that we would hire and I say young folks, young in the business. Some of them were our age or my age. You're much younger than I am, kurt, but the fact is, when we would hire them and they hadn't been in sales before because most of the folks we hired, you know, the last thing they sold was Girl Scout cookies and they couldn't spell insurance, not because they didn't have a great brain, because they all were extremely smart, they just hadn't had that experience yet. And you know, it was like I just I know how to do this, so just let me go do it. Well, no, you really don't.

Speaker 2:

Professional sales is a process and you need to learn how to ask the right questions. Well, I'm just going to ask them what they want. Yeah, well, sometimes they'll tell you and sometimes they won't. You got to be able to build another word you used earlier that I wanted to camp on for a minute, kirk. You've got to build trust and without that it's not going anywhere. Would you agree?

Speaker 1:

I absolutely agree with you, morris, and I think therein lies the challenge between the amateur and the professional is how quickly can I establish a trust-based relationship that doesn't seem manipulative? I don't have commission breadth I'm really curious about where are you at in your blank Now. You know your preface here in your bumper 1099, which means you're responsible for your own systems and processes for generating revenue and keeping that revenue. And there's a reason for that one where you're not a W-2. So you have to step back and think of what is it that I'm selling or representing and how do I earn that trust over time? And Charlie Green is someone about our age and he wrote a book called the Trusted Advisor.

Speaker 1:

Charlie's equation for trust is it spans time and trust is credibility, reliability and intimacy over self-orientation. So I would look at you, morris, as a gentleman who has got tenure in the insurance business. Do you have the credibility? Heck yeah. Do I want to tap into that? Heck yeah. Do you have the reliability? Did you show up on time? Did you show up on time? Did you show up early? Did you do the things you said you're going to do? When you're going to do them? And then the intimacy is are you transparent enough? That says you know Kurt. That's a great question. I don't have the answer for that right now, but I will get it for you. Or you know, kurt, this policy just isn't for you, and that's okay. And all of that is over that self orientation. The more it's about the customer, the client, the patient, the prospect, the member, and it's not about me, that trust increases. And that trust is only as good for that one conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's all about the other person in building any relationship. I mean, even if you look at the front end of that process we've talked about, which is prospecting and folks like to call it marketing but it's prospecting going out and finding somebody who has a need for what you do or what you sell Even in that process we talk a lot about networking and doing those kinds of things you can do that right and you can do that wrong. I mean, there's not a lot of in between. You can either do it properly or you can do it incorrectly, and when you do it properly, you build a relationship. You can either do it properly or you can do it incorrectly, and when you do it properly you build a relationship, and when you do it incorrectly, everything tends to fall apart. Because when you do it properly, it's all about that other person, when you do it incorrectly, it's all about me. And that's so much true in life, I think, in general.

Speaker 1:

You're absolutely right and you touched on networking, and we're using the advanced techniques today of social influence, social media, artificial intelligence. The next thing you know, artificial intelligence can create an entire networking script that may or may not exude genuine trust or a false front, and so we use who do I know? If I want to get to Morris, but I don't know Morris I look and find out the person that might know that person, that could broker that introduction, and then from there maybe I'm borrowing another person's trust. If you're representing a product or a service or a company that has an established bona fide, you can leverage that trust. If it's a brand new product, a brand new service, a brand new company, then you've got to figure out an alternate or a creative way to establish that trust. Otherwise the person's going to say I don't need you, I don't need to take this phone call, I don't need to have this conversation. So it is critical.

Speaker 2:

And once we build that trust and we get that relationship started, then you can ask those questions that are going to allow you to find out what's important to them and what they really want. And asking questions is an art, isn't it? And asking questions is an art, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

You know, morris, everyone always asks me in a sales process what's the number one thing that salespeople fail on, and it's the art of asking great, open-ended questions. We call it the discovery phase or the disco. You know you can use the tools In fact, I'm preaching the gospel of use artificial intelligence to enhance the ability to ask better, open-ended questions and then you've got to listen for the answer and drill down. So what I use at DXP is the impact process from the Brooks Group and it's all focused on a simple analogy of needs, wants and why. This is what I'm trying to determine what the customer, prospect, client needs. But really, what is it that they want and why is that important? I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Rarely, rarely do people call on the phone and go man, you know what? I woke up this day and I said man, I need insurance, I need it, I need it, like right now. No, no, no, no, no. What do you want? I want to make sure my family is protected if I was ever hit by a bus. Well, why is that important to you? Because I grew up on the wrong side of poverty and I scraped my way through and I don't want my loved ones to suffer that way, way through, and I don't want my loved ones to suffer that way. Okay, wow, now I just got into emotion. Now I can tell me more. Why is that important? Okay, how does that look like? What have you tried in the past? What's your biggest fear? Hey, we're having a conversation now. Haven't sold you insurance.

Speaker 1:

All I've done is ask you a bunch of questions to uncover needs, wants and why. And you know for a 1099 person who's out there trying to think about sales and they're saying Kurt, I'm really not a salesperson. Then just be a conversationalist and practice on your family and friends first and say you know, what do you do when you don't do this? Oh man, I really love scuba diving. That's interesting. Tell me more about that. How did you get into it? What was your biggest victory? What happens if you fail? How do you prepare? And next thing, you know you're having a conversation that you can then say well, I've learned how to have a conversation. Now let me go in front of a prospect. Have that same conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It just makes all the difference in the world. And then, once you find that out, those answers to all those questions inform what you're going to recommend that they might consider for helping them solve whatever problem it is we've uncovered.

Speaker 1:

Exactly Based on my professional recommendation, based on my 42 years in the business. Here's what I recommend. I'm not suggesting anything, because suggestions are just you throw spaghetti on the business. Here's what I recommend. I'm not suggesting anything, because suggestions are just you throw spaghetti on the wall. See what sticks.

Speaker 1:

But I'm making a professional recommendation based on my experience, that continues to earn trust. Move the defenses down and if they say, you know, that's great, but I don't really want it right now, well, I'm in the discovery. I didn't have my sense of urgency checked off. I didn't get the are you the person that makes the decision? Checked off? All of those different things. I didn't heighten the need.

Speaker 1:

Now you and I are both from the sales game and I don't feel that you're the kind of person that you'd use kind of a pain technique. But it's out there in the world today that if I can find a need and I can just continue to create a pain that people are going to want to fix that, well, that sounds like emotional manipulation to me and it's not genuine trust. I might say look, this isn't the time for you. I get that you're distracted. Why don't we set up a follow-up call? How is March 22nd look like for you? Does that look good for you? And you just do the follow-up because you know people convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, absolutely, and chances are, their opinion of you and your product and your company has just gone downhill.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, which makes it even further difficult to build that trust back up?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, the other thing I like to harp on is one sale isn't going to make or break your career. I'm sorry, don't get so tied up in one sale that you get out there and you do stupid things. One sale isn't going to make or break your career. Some people will, some people won't. So what Next, exactly?

Speaker 1:

S-W-S-W next. I knew we could complete each other's sentences. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, there's no doubt about it. No doubt about it when you're making recommendations, do you like to provide more than one option and do it kind of as a multiple choice sort of thing?

Speaker 1:

Freak out, thinking I'm going to be technique them or manipulating them. I do offer either a good, better, best or two alternates. Why? Because the science says that people who have opinions or options will pick one of the. If I just say here's the policy, let's buy it. Or here's my product or service, let's buy it. I don't have a, I don't know. But if I give you an A and a B and I say here's a policy, here's a different one, here's a product, here's a different one, here's a bundle, here's a different one, Now I've got a choice I can make. Maybe I eliminate bundle B and I just focus on bundle A. Now we talk about other things and yeah, I do offer choices.

Speaker 2:

I do too, and I like to teach that that you know. We're going to offer you in the way I've been doing is we're going to have you three choices, all three of those recommendations. I'm not pitching anything. Baseball players pitch. I don't pitch, I'm a professional salesperson. Okay, that I'll get off that soapbox. The fact is, I'll give them three recommendations, kurt. Which one of those do you think is best for you and your family? And I'm done, that's it, that's it. That's as salesy as I get. Which one do you think is best for you and your family? And all three are recommendations that I believe in. All three are recommendations that are probably pretty close in price and the difference is the benefits. Oh, we could talk about benefits and features, kurt, the whole idea is they're all three pretty much the same, but one of them is going to speak to that prospect and they're going to choose one or the other, and when they do, it's done.

Speaker 2:

All they got to do is choose one, and then we move right into great. In order to make that happen for you, we need to do these things.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, and sometimes those people come to us and they want to rush the process. And what are my three options?

Speaker 1:

And back to the discovery stage, I think you know, I'd love to share with you those three options, but would you give me a couple of minutes to ask you a few more questions? And the reason I want to ask those questions is many of the people I work with want to see a little bit more detail. Would that be okay with you? Sure, go ahead Now you're plumbing the depths a little bit more and so you can actually give them a true recommendation based on each one of those three pieces are legitimate, they're exactly it's going to fill their needs and they just do it in a different way, and I think they appreciate that. Or, like you said, most people will appreciate that over time.

Speaker 1:

There will always be people who are shopping you and in my industry I call it, you know you, column C on the spreadsheet. You know you're never going to go with me, but you need justification why the crappiest one or the cheapest one is the one you want to select. Well, that's great, whether it's insurance or you know you, you, you sit in your travel agent, things of that nature. It's like can you get me on a plane that basically has only one functioning engine, uh, and a couple of broken seats, just so I can get to my destination cheaper. No, no, I can't do that. That's not what we do here. We offer you an experience so that you can feel good about it, because we want you to tell 15 of your friends how wonderful that experience was. So seven of them can call us on the phone.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Isn't that the truth? It's just, it's amazing. There was a group of folks that I worked with at one point who their habit, their process, was to use the word that I want to eliminate from Webster's entirely, the Q word their process was let me send you a quote. And I just kind of threw up a little bit in my mouth when I said that it's like wait a minute time out, Think about what you just did. You just told somebody let me send you a quote. What do you do when you get a quote, Kurt? You go out and you get another one, so you have something to compare to.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Do I really want to send you to somebody else to get another number to look at when, once you tell them what you want, and you told me what you want they're going to adjust their stuff to come in a little bit lower? Yeah, so anyway, I want to. I want to eliminate that word. So anyway, I want to eliminate that word.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I absolutely understand that one. And whether it's a document or a recommendation, I might want to ask what are you going to do? What's your process of evaluating this? Walk me through your process. You know, sometimes it's not so much B to C and business to consumer. We're selling our 1099 services to businesses and so, in the discovery, help me to understand your buying process, your criteria, evaluation process. Where will this go? Who else? You know that's ABC. Always be curious.

Speaker 1:

I want to know that because they may eliminate me from the get go, because they have an incumbent that they've had for 15 years, who is, you know, your wife's brother-in-law. Well, that's a tough nut to crack.

Speaker 2:

It really is. But a great question though what's your evaluation process? How are you going to make this decision so that I can best make sure you have all the information you need to do that? You know it's not so that I can figure out how to make you buy what I want. It's so that I can best make sure you have all the information you need to do that. You know it's not so that I can figure out how to make you buy what I want. It's so that I can help you make sure you have all the information you need to make that decision in your process. Oh, what a great question. I wrote that one down.

Speaker 1:

And you know, to add on to that one there Morris is am I chasing the technical sale or the business sale? Am I chasing the technical sale or the business sale? Am I chasing the technical case or the business case? Because I know so many people want to get wrapped up in the technical aspect of our product or service and the technical guy really, really loves it, or the technical gal. But I don't know how to cross the chasm to the business people who make that business decision. Well, I'm just going to get your quote, don't throw up, and I'm going to email it to my boss in another city. Well, what's the point of us having this conversation? How do I help you walk that quote? How do I understand what the business? Because they're going to look at this thing, saying wait a minute. You're asking me to spend money, there's tariffs coming. We got a new regime coming in Washington. There's 15 other excuses why I don't want to part with any cash right now. You've lost the whole opportunity.

Speaker 2:

Oh, totally, totally and completely. And then we get right back into features and benefits. The technical side is usually filled with all the features. You know, this car has electric windows. Okay, that's really great. Who gives a care? Well, you do, because it's so much easier when you have an electric window than it is to crank one up and down. Now, that's a terrible analogy in today's world, kurt, because so many people have never seen a window they had to crank up and down on an automobile.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

But the concept still holds. There's a difference between a feature and a benefit and people buy benefits and and they they get excited about features, but they buy based on benefits sales people love to sell the feature and the customer buys the benefits.

Speaker 1:

So we need to create open-ended questions that highlight the benefit and then we can back it into the feature. You know the benefit of this cleaning product is it's 99% germ-free. You know what does that mean to you? Well, you've got little kids in a school environment and they're constantly going to have viruses, so this can help with that. That's the benefit of the product. The feature of that I can pull the thing out and it only pulls one pad out of the top dispenser. That's the benefit of the product. The feature of that I can pull the thing out and it only pulls one pad out of the top dispenser. That's a great thing. But the benefit is I'm not going. I'm pulling these things out like some kind of a magician with his silk scarves, which is frustrating for that particular application.

Speaker 2:

Isn't that the truth? That's for sure, Kurt. This has been so much fun. We're going to have to do this again, you know.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I mean we could go. I hope your listeners can sense the power and the passion that both I have and that you have, morris. I think you know we can make sales fun and easy again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, this is not hard. It really is not hard. It is a fun thing to do. It's not hard, it really is not hard. It is a fun thing to do, and it is so much fun to know, when you walk out the door, that you've helped somebody get what they want for their business, for their family, for their life, for their vacation, for whatever the case may be. It feels so good to know that you helped them get where they want to go.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

It just makes all the difference in the world. Kurt, again, thank you so very much. We're going to do this again. I appreciate you, brother, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, Morris.

Speaker 2:

Well, that does it for this episode of the Commission Code Podcast. Well, that does it for this episode of the Commission Code Podcast. This is the place where we want to help you find the commission code to success in your business. Remember, go to MorrisSimscom for more information and in the meantime, hey, have a great week, get out there and meet somebody new, and we'll see you again next time right here on the Commission Code. Best wishes. I'm Morris Sims.

Speaker 1:

Excellent.